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David Johnson 6/24/23 David Johnson 6/24/23

4S Supplemental: Why Seek?

Andrew

Darren

Bryan

I am not a seeker. I used to be. But I'm not anymore. Thing is, I don't even know what a seeker is. Very few people have actually tried to define it and put some kind of criteria around the idea. Hat tip to Dale for being one of the people that have put some effort into it. I have read his 11 premise work. While I am not remotely convinced by it, I am still glad he did the work and hope one day he is recognized for the effort.

People used "seeker" like it is obvious what it means. It isn't. We only have cultural and contextual cues to guid us. Don't blame me if I provide a definition that is different from yours. I personally despise the term and can only tell you how I hear and understand what is intended:

Definition

A religious or religious-adjacent search for some type of spiritual truth that is otherwise not obvious or easy to attain.
A search for the transcendental, higher, eternal, existential truth.
A commitment to studying life's mysteries, especially of a religious or spatial nature.
A commitment to discovering metaphysical truths about reality.

While I have tried to cover a broad range of meanings, I believe the most common use of the word is ultimately religious in nature. A seeker is one seeking god, whatever that means. I was once such a person. Anyone who questions my commitment as a seeker when I was a Christian, and even sometime afterward, simply doesn't know what they are talking about and should be summarily ignored.

Seeking was my business. There is not a more fervent seeker than one who believes he has already found. I believed I had already found what I was looking for, at least the skin of it. And I wanted more, a lot more. To find more, I had to seek more. Seeking was my business. And business was good.

Still, there are a lot of presuppositions that one has to take onboard before beginning the journey of a seeker. There is also a fundamental question one must ask of all seekers: Why do you seek?

To find what is missing

It is sometimes said that everyone has a god-shaped hole in them. The only hole I have in me other than the usual assortment is a hernia. It has been held together by mesh for well over a decade. I don't believe that hole is god-shaped. Your milage may vary.

That said, a lot of people have some kind of psychological dissatisfaction that they can't name. Religionists automatically call that god. How presumptuous must one be to diagnose a person's psychological disposition? For them, Jesus is the answer to everything. If you are feeling mentally and emotionally unsettled, it is because you don't have god in your life. Never mind actual diagnosis from a medical profession. And I far as I know, there are no credible psychological professionals that diagnose such problems as a lack of god in one's life. That doesn't stop Christians from inventing a god-shaped diagnosis.

The first and most obvious reason one seeks is because they believe they are missing something. I once believed that. But I don't any more. So the first reason I am no longer a seeker is because I lack nothing. I'm fine as I am. I am at peace with myself and am comfortable in my own skin. There is nothing I need to find. I can't think of anything missing, especially in some spiritual or metaphysical realm.

The interesting thing is that seekers don't seem to know what it is they are seeking. They seldom call themselves seekers of god even when it is clear that this is what they are. They are just seekers. I contend if you don't know what you are looking for, you will have no way of recognizing it even if you found it. Seekers need to be a lot more specific about what they are seeking.

I seek truth in plenty of arenas. But that is not what is meant by the word. One who studies astrophysics is not considered a seeker. Biologists, historians, doctors, and the like are never referred to as seekers. We tend to reserve that label for people who are seeking the vague and unknowable with a dash of spiritualism. Only then can one be considered a seeker. Funny that.

To find god

Having observed that most seekers are in the religious camp, it stands to reason that one of the main reasons to seek is to find god. This seems like a fool's errand to me. Why should anyone need to seek out god? Doesn't he want to seek out and save the lost? He should be seeking me, not the other way around.

What a strange state of affairs we have that the god who wants to save me, would refuse to do so because I didn't seek him. Aren't I an unregenerate sinner? Isn't my mind on evil all the time? What would even make me want to seek god? I am told by Christians that no one can seek god unless he gives us the grace to be convicted enough to seek him. I am not so convicted. My sense of the divine is broken. I recognize no spiritual truths. So it is up to god to seek me.

No Christian has ever been able to give me a clear answer to the question: Why the heck would I ever want to seek out a god? It always comes down to some heavenly reward or hellish punishment in which I absolutely do not believe. So what is the incentive? I don't feel like I have anything missing and I see no reason to find a god who could easily find me if he cared to do so. If it is a game of hide and seek where he hides and I seek, count me out. He is free to remain hidden. I'm not going to play that game.

To give their lives meaning

I have never met a seeker who actually found anything, making seeking the worst job ever. However, they consider the unfound and the unknowable an end unto itself. Seeking gives their lives meaning and direction. Before, they were atoms in motion. But now, they are seeking the great truths. That gives them a status they can live with.

Were they to actually find the answers they seek, they wouldn't be seekers anymore. There is always something more to seek. Regardless of what one finds, it is only a door to an even deeper mystery. It is mysteries all the way down. And that is just how they like it.

I don't need to give my life meaning. This might make me something of a psychological unicorn. I simply don't care what anyone thinks about my meaning or my potential or anything of the sort. I don't need any of it. I keep dogs partially because they remind me that life doesn't need a meaning or a purpose. I didn't ask to be here and I don't owe the universe a damn thing.

If I decide that I need a purpose, I will give myself one. I will never let someone else dictate to me what my purpose should be. Screw that! Citing words that make Christians quake with rage and scorn, I am the captain of my soul. I set my course as I see fit. And if you want to come around and tell me my course is wrong, you can get off my bloody ship!

I don't need to seek mysteries to feel like I have done something worthy of my time on earth. This brings me to some of the reasons I jettisoned the tag of seeker:

I don't care about the mysteries

I don't care if there is a god. If there is a god who refuses to make himself known in a way that I can be certain of his existence and expectations, he is indistinguishable from not existing at all. For such a god, I simply cannot spare a tinker's damn!

It is not just god. I don't care about any of the mysteries for which seekers tend to seek. I care about the sciences, hard and soft. I do not care about anything in a metaphysical realm because I can't even get any confirmation that such a realm exists. I have never encountered what most would call the supernatural. I find the natural to be enough of a challenge for me. So beyond that, I just can't bring myself to care.

To top it all off, I'm not that big on mysteries of any kind. What religious people call mysteries is that which is unknowable to the natural person as explained by Paul. Even for them, the mysteries are largely unknowable. But they hold them sacred anyway. Keep your mysteries. I will just have to settle for inquiries that might actually yield answers.

I have already been a seeker

Jesus says that they who seek will find. Jesus is a damned liar! I sought about as hard as anyone in my position could. I didn't find. I asked, but nothing was given. I knocked, and the door remained closed. I have already been a seeker without results for the vast majority of my life.

This is the case for most X-tians I know. They looked as hard as they could and found nothing more than disappointment. They blamed themselves and determined to do better, seek harder, knock louder. They got more silence for their efforts. Despite all that. Some of them continue to think of themselves as seekers. Not me. I've done my time. I'm out.

It requires faith

Seeking is a religious endeavor that requires some type of religious commitment before you can have any hope of finding anything. Before one can say the sinner's prayer, they have to think of themselves as a sinner before god, meaning they have to already believe in a god.

Even if it is just a watered down seekers prayer, you still are making a religious commitment. That is what prayer is. Who the heck do you think you are praying to? If a Christian can con you into saying some kind of prayer, they have already gotten a high level of buy-in from you. That is a winning sales tactic. Don't play their game.

They might ask you to read some portion of the Bible such as the gospel of John. But why should you agree to do that? Even agreeing to do that requires that you believe the document is somehow authoritative in some way. That requires buy-in.

Their pleas for you to be open-minded are hilarious. They want you to be open to their god while they would never be open to a tree god or sun god. For them, openness goes only in one direction. It is another way of trying to guilt you into buying in to their way of thinking.

What does it even mean to be open to a god? I don't reject any truth I discover no matter how shocking. I will check it and check it twice, then check it again. But I reject no truth that I can confirm. I don't have to have a state of open-mindedness to accept new truths. But that is not enough for the Christian.

They want you to not merely be willing to accept new truths. They want you to achieve a kind of pre-acceptance of a god that is not yet in evidence. They want you to hear them out, read their pamphlets, listen to their sermons, visit their churches, and say their prayers before they can accept you as being open. Don't let anyone bully you into being "open" to their delusions. Follow the evidence and welcome new truths. You are already there. Reject their special pleading for special openness.

Seekers don't live better lives

As near as I can tell, there are no tangible benefits to being a seeker. Their lives are as messy as yours. They have no more answers to life's real questions than you. Their children aren't smarter or better looking. Their marriages are not stronger. Their jobs are not more secure. They have the same addictions, cancers, depression, and general chaos as everyone else. There is simply nothing that differentiates them from one who doesn't do any seeking.

Perhaps seekers have a more fulfilled inner life. Good for them. That fact is not in evidence. The only people I personally know who committed suicide were Christian seekers, and good ones at that. Mental illness is no joke and should not be used to score cheap rhetorical points. I can assure you that is not what I am doing. What I am trying to demonstrate is that in every category of human chaos and misery, the seeker is no advantage. They only have a fantasy that all will be better in the next iteration. Best of luck with that.

Conclusion: Anti-seeker

You are free to be any kind of seeker you want. You have my useless blessing. But the truth is that I am not just a non-seeker; I am an anti-seeker. The more I think about the concept, I turn more against the very idea of it.

As I said before, many of the areas of study worth pursuing are not any part of what is meant by seeking. It really does seem to be a dog whistle for religion and spirituality. Don't fall for the nonsense. Seeker is the first step of indoctrination into a cult. It is not a pathway to truth.

There are things worth seeking. Seek out how to be a better parent, sibling, and citizen of the world. Seek out true love for all who breathe, including all that identify as queer, disabled, impoverished, and those who are ethnically different with cultures that clash with yours. Seek true fellowship and solidarity with all humans on your journey to become a better one.

Seek knowledge of reality. Gaze at the stars but don't waste your time wishing. Get a book and learn about them. Study them along with the engine of motion that makes them go. Forget about mysterious energies and seek knowledge of the forces, and why four might not be the magic number. See that bug blindly ambling toward you? Rather than swat it, seek its name by genus and species. Learn its history and its place in the ecosystem.

Speaking of ecosystem, seek knowledge of climate and how it has changed over time. Then seek an answer that will cause you to change for the good. Stop seeking ways to subdue the earth and start seeking ways to live at peace with it and within it.

Christians will not call any of that seeking. That doesn't matter. It is past time that term be retired. Don't be a seeker; be a learner. Be a finder. Be a doer of great deeds. And spend your time finding new ways to be your best self.

See you in the comments...

David Johnson

And now, a response from the real seeker himself…

Special thanks to Dale for responding to my request and taking the time to put together a response. Enjoy

Dale & the Whale: A Real Seekers Rethink!

Most people are familiar with the story of Jonah and the Whale in the Bible; the last few days, Jonah's story has really been resonating with me with respect to Jonah's obstinate attitude and willful disobedience against God. Having been commanded by God to got to Nineveh to preach, Jonah hopped on board the first ship headed in the opposite direction he could find and only after having been swallowed by a whale (or rather "great fish") did he finally, begrudgingly go to Nineveh and preach to them. His mission was a resounding success, in that the Ninevites realized how evil they were and repented from their wicked ways, but Jonah, having seen this, did not rejoice and instead "it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, "Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore, I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, one who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!". 4 Then the Lord said, "Is it right for you to be angry?" [Jonah 4:1-4].

Recently, I too had to face the temptation to sin and espouse a willful disobedience against God due to some underlying anger and bitterness that I was feeling toward a group of people; namely the Orthodox church. Like Jonah and the Ninevites, I was also exposed to some pretty nasty and sinful behaviour from many people who claimed to be disciples of Jesus within the Orthodox church and this caused me to have some bitterness toward them within my heart. I even lashed out at them in a recent Solo show on my Podcast (see "Mad Dog Dale" go to town on them here = <https: data-preserve-html-node="true"//www.youtube.com/watch?v=G416YTFqMkk>](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G416YTFqMkk) ). At a couple points, I spoke about how their bad behaviour toward me as utterly turned me off to the point that I am now closed minded to the Orthodox notion of God, and am now running away from even considering what any of them have to say. Even if the it were true and God showed up in the flesh to tell me that the Orthodox faith is in fact the truth, I boasted that I would then "throw Jesus and my Bible in the trash"; at the time, my sinful pride made it seem as though there was simply no way the God that I know and love could ever support those kinds of wretches and if He did then I wanted no part of Him or them--- it was totally irrational and illogical and I just didn't care, the Heck with being a "Real Seeker" when it comes to the Orthodox!

I am ashamed that I said this and honestly felt this way (heck to much less degree, I still have some residual feelings along these lines), but I know better- this is just sinful pride and hatred of one's enemies and as a follower and friend of Jesus, thankfully the Holy Spirit has quickly exposed this Jonah-like attitude with me to the point that I repent of this entirely. No God, is a Real Maximally Great Being who has loved me and been faithful to me throughout all of my journey and seeking, I cannot and will not betray my friend and the truth, no matter how distasteful it may seem to me in the moment as I view it through a glass darkly; my trust is in God and all truth is His truth, so whether the truth be Orthodoxy, Catholics or Protestantism or Islam, I am committed to discovering and following the truth as every good Real Seeker should be willing to do.

That said, there has been some good that has arisen from this latest round of temptation that I faxed regarding my consistency vs. hypocrisy on my being a "Real Seeker" or not and that is the fact that it has given me an opportunity to reflect on my criteria for ones' being a Real Seeker and to have a better understanding of some Atheists and skeptics who for similar emotional reasons, have irrationally turned their back on Jesus and Christianity as a whole, or worse, on seeking religious truths altogether. My own experience has revealed that there may be times when it is OK to not be a "Real Seeker", or rather, when it is OK to not be actively seeking the truth on something. I have always qualified my own Real Seeker criteria to say that one must fulfill the three requirements on their end, but only within reason and to the best of their ability relative to their own individual circumstances.

I admit, right now I can't consider Orthodoxy at this moment, I'm simply not able to give it a fair hearing, the very thought of it is repulsive to me right now, and thus, I need a break for a little bit to regain my rational composure as it were. I don't see that God would have any problem with someone doing this as sometimes a little time and separation is good for us just as married couples may need some time to cool off after having a fight; that's where I am right now with Orthodoxy, I need to go for a walk to blow off some steam.

However, I think there is an important fundamental difference between what I'm doing with Orthodoxy and what Atheists and skeptics do with respect to Christianity as a whole or religious truths in general, many times they don't just have a momentary lapse in judgement for which they almost immediately repent afterward nor do they claim to just need a break to clear their head for a month or two; instead some Atheists like to double down on their sinful attitude of closed mindedness and bitterness toward God and His truth, they delude themselves into thinking they are entirely fine without needing to seek the truth of such matters out and thus they set their hearts in an entrenched state of "anti-Seeking".

What is a Real Seeker?

As David mentions in his Blog and shows, there are various notions of what it means to be a "seeker" and they do not always agree with each other, however I do tend to agree with David, that the notion of being a "seeker" entails more than just the already sense of being a student or "learner" of truth in general; for most the term seeker seems to imply that one is trying to attain truths which are conducive to some kind of worthwhile goal and this usually pertains to goals related to spiritual or religious truths. As such, my research has primarily been related to what I call "Real Seekers", by definition, people who are interested in seeking out any and all worthwhile religious truths necessary to understand the nature of ultimate reality, our ultimate purpose and how one may attain that ultimate purpose. Being a "Real Seeker" requires that one fulfill 3 criteria on their part;

a) Be sincerely open-minded to the truth about these matters.

b) Actively seeking the truth via seriously considering all sides to the very best of their ability (this is relative to each individual's best efforts as some have access to more resources and/or have more abilities than others and thus some may have more/less of a burden than other seekers).

c) Be willing to obey, follow and/or submit (in whatever way appropriate) to the truth about such matters upon discovery.

It is important to note that, despite David's assertions in his Blog and shows, my criteria for being a Real Seeker do not presuppose the truth of Christianity nor that someone wants to seek the Christian God in particular, nor does my notion of being a seeker mean that one must have a "God-shaped" hole in their heart as there are many religions whereby the nature of ultimate reality is not Theistic at all; thus, my criteria are generalized so as to apply to any and all religious worldviews.

Lastly, David J. was completely off base in saying that I have a special meaning of "open-mindedness", no idea where he got that from and it is utterly untrue. It means what everyone in the entire world means by it, look if something is a possibility, then I'm open minded to considering the evidence of its truth vs. falsity. Scientists do this all the time when they are "open" to absurdly improbable notions like eternal cosmological models that we have no proof for and the evidence prove the various models to be highly improbable yet possible and that alone is good enough for them. There are possible options as to how life originated on Earth- scientist are open minded as together any of them (or none of them) may be true until we have enough evidence to know one way or the other- none of these theories have sufficient evidence for us to think any one of them is probably true and yet we are "open-minded" to considering their veracity and seeking out the evidence for or against them.

It's the same with religions, one ought to be open minded to considering every possibility until they know for sure that one or more of them are false or true at which point the seeking on that front ends (I know how to be saved) and perhaps a new seeking journey begins on some other matter- such as where do I park in Heaven when I pick up my Chicago Pizzas- joke from one of the show lol).

Answering Atheist Objections

Unfortunately, there were a lot of claims made in David's Blog and in his 3 shows and I wish I had the time to respond to all of them, unfortunately I have 3-4 Podcasts this week (starting with my live discussion on Faith Unaltered with Trinity expert Dr. Beau Branson on Thursday June 29th at 1 pm) and so I have opted to choose one of the main objections from each of the 4 Atheists involved (David J., Andrew, Darren and Bryan) and respond to them in turn.

1. Andrew's "Ethics Replacement Therapy" Notion;

The Atheist Andrew claims that he rejects the notion of being a "Real Seeker" because in order to seek the truth of the Christian God, he says that one must undergo a total ethics replacement whereby he must replace his own ethical system and adopt the Christian precepts of morality first, before he is able to really seek out the truth of Christianity. He goes on to specify by asking whether one can be a Real Seeker of Christianity and still be a member of the homosexual or trans communities as an example.

Now Andrew claims to have been a good Bible believing Christian for decades prior to his deconversion and so I have to wonder whether he might be trying to be a little disingenuous here as surely he is aware of Bible verses by Paul that explicitly say that Christians are not to judge the unbelievers or hold them to the same higher moral standards that followers of Jesus must adhere to (E.g. "For what business is it of mine to judge outsiders (non-believers)? Do you not judge those who are within the church [to protect the church as the situation requires]?- see 1 Corinthians 5:12). In Romans 2:14-15, Paul likewise says that "when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them". No one has ever said that one must believe in and live out a Christian moral life before one has been born again in Jesus, certainly I don't require one to be a Christian moralist before they are able to be a Real Seeker- please show me where, in my list of 3 criteria, I say that to be a Real Seeker, one must not be a homosexual or some such.

This is the beauty of Christianity, it does not require the absurd for people to seek and find answers to their fundamental religious questions unlike some other religions, I remember Buddhism, one of the leaders of the Temple demanded that only after I devote my entire life to being a Buddhist will the truth finally be revealed to me- that is ridiculous and unreasonable as a demand. Thank God, Jesus doesn't demand an unbeliever must pretend that he is a believer before for his entire life before the truth is revealed!

2. Darren's Erroneous Epistemology- Experience vs. Explanation;

Well, well, well, glad to see Darren has moved beyond the whole, "You haven't demonstrated it to be true" mantra based on his own unfounded notion of Scientism and his anti-Supernatural bias that he always used to use when I was on the show… Er, wait, never mind, that was pretty much the only response he had throughout the entirety of the show! For what it is worth, that cap of thorns must have penetrated down to David's brain, as I thought he did a stellar job of countering Darren from the perspective of those who argue that seeking out some kind of experience is the only way to determine the truth or falsity of a religious belief.

That said, there was one point toward the end, when Darren had finally understood the point David was making about the religious experience via the Holy Spirit but he countered that having the experience is different from being able to justifiably explain the experience and, according to him, there simply is no way of ensuring that one's explanation of an experience is true vs. misinterpretation.

Yes, it is true that there is a difference perhaps in the experience of the Holy Spirit vs. the propositional explanations that attested to our spirit by Him and this is the whole point of Properly Basix Beliefs. PBB's are said to be attached to such religious experiences induced by the Holy Spirit and provide the propositional content and knowledge in terms of the explanation for and/or authenticity of those experiences and their interpretation. That is the claim, it is a subjective claim that provides the subject having the experiences with knowledge (warranted true belief) even if they can't demonstrate to the non- experiencer that they are indeed warranted; that is simply not relevant anymore than my inability to demonstrate to you that I really am seeing a red sensation right now as I type this- I'm warranted in believing or disbelieving this claim based on a PBB grounded in my own subjective experience/sensations. I ask, am I seeing a red sensation right now as I type this paragraph or not, I'm neither affirming or denying my sensations to you and thus you have 0 objective testimonial evidence to help you or maybe I do affirm it but in this case I'm telling you that there is an equal probability that I may be lying just to trick you to make a point; obviously there is no way for you to know- doesn't mean that I don't know the answer.

3. Bryan's "Epistemology and Beyond" Objection;

Bryan raised one of my favorite objections in this series as it was one we have discussed briefly before, namely that the third criterion I have for being a "Real Seeker" says that one must "be willing to obey, follow and/or submit (in whatever way appropriate) to the truth about such matters upon discovery" and he rightly points out that this is not a recognized epistemic criterion for one to have knowledge of a given proposition (including religious propositions such as "the Christian God exists"). He is right that one is theoretically able to "know" and believe that God exists without committing to obeying or following that God, after all the Bible itself says that the demons believe and they shudder, but they are actively disobeying God's plan for salvation.

Here is why I include that as a criterion for humans despite agreeing that no general epistemology textbook in the world would require this moral or spiritual precondition for one being able to rationally believe or "know" certain propositions (whether of a religious nature or otherwise)- the reason is simply due to the fact that some religions teach that we are not pure epistemic agents with respect to certain religious propositions, we have been contaminated and infected and damaged in some way (this is what Christianity teaches via the Fall for example- or at least some versions of it) and we all know that our emotions and other non-rational factors often do affect our ability to be pure epistemic rational agents at times.

Hence, it makes sense that in some religions like Christianity, one needs a little divine help to correct or fix the problem to a degree before one is able to believe that God exits or Jesus rose from the dead for example, then that will allow us to form those beliefs.

Furthermore, it is important to note that being a "Real Seeker" isn't just about seeking religious truths and propositions alone, but it is also to help us learn how to attain our ultimate purpose as well (I'm seeking to fulfill or attain my ultimate purpose not just know what it is after all); in Christianity, having the right beliefs about God and Jesus alone are insufficient to attain the ultimate goal, one must also be redeemed from the effects of sin first before they xan have that eternal loving relationship with God and be reconciled with Him.

Your choosing to be willing to obey God or the Ultimate Reality in whatever way is appropriate may be necessary for all or some of us to undergo in a seeking phase as being willing to obey is able to help us to freely choose this or that option that play a part in the overall reformation of sin's impacts on us. This is just the way it is, God has no choice, it is impossible for God to just snap His fingers and make you better and make you be redeemed (else He would have just done that from the beginning), no YOU have to play a role, YOU have to use your freewill at various times to help make that happen too and for that, perhaps God must hide to some degree and get you to seek Him out to help you develop in the right ways based on your individual circumstances and based on how sin has impacted you as an individual to greater and lesser degrees relative to others as well as how you relate to others and their spiritual development as well.

The point is not to say this is the actual reason you must be a Real Seeker, no maybe everything I just said is false- point is, if it's even possibly true, then you ought to be open to seeking God and find out. Again, if the Christian God is real and the source of all goodness, then you are unfit to attain the end goal of your life (i.e., salvation) on your own and thus you won't get it regardless of what you believe or know propositionally; so I see no reason why God has any obligation to reveal the truth to someone unwilling to obey or follow the truth at all- doing so with an unrepentant and rebellious person who has no intention of living the good life that he/she was designed to live for their own good is wrongheaded and a waste of time; more so, it may even be that giving someone like that the truth may lead to even more harm for people in God's Kingdom here on Earth and thus, God is protecting us by not being so obvious. For all we know perhaps Atheists are like stalker serial killers, everything is fine and dandy when they merely interact with their dream girlfriend as a fantasy, but when things get real and there is a real engagement, then one's expectations may be let down and Heaven help us as to what such people might do to hurt that person or their loved ones. This is not far-fetched at all, I am able to vividly think of some online Atheists I've met that if they ever did learn God was real, they would most assuredly lash out in jealousy at those God loves all the more and cause untold damage to God's flock and indirectly to God Himself as he sees us suffer all because He proved to these unwilling and unready (for redemption) Atheists that He exists-if only God just left the godless in their fantasies life would be a lot better for everyone involved---- just an interesting thought-experiment there, not saying all Atheists are like stalkers or serial killers obviously, I'm just saying like 99% of you guys are that way is all jk lol :P

4. David's Tu Quoque Objection;

At one point, David J. mentioned that Christians demand Atheists only be Real Seekers for Christianity, but they themselves are not "Real Seekers" for other religions like Satanism. Uh, not true at all, I studied various religions before finding out Jesus was our Lord and Saviour and encourage you to do the same as an unbeliever- I say don't just read John's Gospel, but read the Quran or the Vedas or whatever else. Finally, I myself even as a Christian without 100% knowledge that Christianity is true remain a Real Seeker towards other religions (including Satanism)- present with the opportunity to see the evidence and I will look at it. I said this on a RoundTable in 2018 with David J., Andrew and Matt and you guys laughed at me for saying I was open to it at that time- funny how 5 years later, you are now laughing at Christians who are not open to considering other religions and their claims- which is it, are we damned if we do, or damned if we don't?

Conclusion: Looking for Probable Cause to Seek

Towards the end of one of his shows, Bryan mentioned that, like a police officer, he needs "probable cause" (reasonable grounds for making a search in the first place) and David mentioned that he and I both agree that one doesn't have to be a "Real Seeker" for religions where the ultimate purpose is undesirable or not worth it; I do agree on that front. However, when it comes to his assessment of the end goal/s of Christianity, I think his assessment is deeply flawed and he is deluded to think it unworthy of pursuit. Thus, one must also be a "Real Seeker" with respect to their assessment of our ultimate purposes and I would say unless you have 100% knowledge that end goal of a given religion is undesirable, then one must always remain open and willing to seek its truth as a Real Seeker. Our ultimate purpose is the most important thing in the world, it is why we are here, it is what we are designed for and the thing that will bring us ultimate fulfillment; deluding yourself into thinking that achieving your own ultimate purpose is somehow a waste of time or a "bad thing" shows extremely bad judgement. David says, "I am the captain of my soul. I set my course as I see fit. And if you want to come around and tell me my course is wrong, you can get off my bloody ship!" I agree you have freewill, you are the captain of your soul as God has designed you that way (what an AWESOME God we have), but I suspect that virtually none of us (not even David Johnson the guru of S&S) have 100% knowledge that Salvation is unworthy of pursuit or that the Christian God is false and if so, you are potentially steering that ship into a rogue wave and are totally oblivious to it- tell me to get off your blood y boat if you want and I will do so, but as a saved Christian, I'm the ultimate navigator, I know where the waters your sailing lead and you won't like it- even George Clooney wasn't tough enough to handle the giant rogue waves of Hell = <https: data-preserve-html-node="true"//www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Tdw5nG4dQ>](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Tdw5nG4dQ)

God bless,

Dale- representing the Christian or Real Seeker side and who was once Lost but now is Found ��